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Exploring the Role of Fathers in Pregnancy and Beyond
In a heartwarming and insightful episode of the “Dads with Daughters” podcast, host Dr. Christopher Lewis chats with Matthew Morris, who shares his unique journey into fatherhood. Through experiences that span 15 countries, Morris does more than recount personal stories; he advocates for systemic changes in how fathers are supported during the pregnancy journey. Here’s a deeper dive into the profound topics discussed in this enriching episode.
The Discovery of Parenthood
Matthew Morris and his wife Shannon found out they were expecting their first child in the most memorable way. Following an offhand Mother’s Day comment, a series of pregnancy tests confirmed the joyous news. As fate would have it, the couple discovered they were having a girl at a family gathering through a creative, heartwarming gender reveal—Matthew dyed his hair pink to share the news.
A Journey Across Continents
Before settling into parenthood, the adventurous couple decided to travel to 15 countries, immersing themselves in different cultures and learning global perspectives on pregnancy and childbirth. They planned their destinations whimsically; Brazil if a boy, Thailand if a girl, turning every step into an adventure. Their travel decisions were also influenced by significant life changes, including job losses and leaving active military duty. These pivotal moments pushed them forward into the next chapter of their lives.
Navigating Healthcare and Birth
The Morris’s initial plan was to have their baby in Denmark, attracted by the progressive and cost-effective healthcare system. However, visa issues forced them back to the U.S. at 35 weeks pregnant. Matthew expressed strong critiques of the U.S. healthcare system’s support for childbirth, and particularly its lack of resources for fathers. Ultimately, Shannon opted for a home birth in their Chicago apartment, supported by a midwife and a doula. This experience emphasized the importance of having a birthing team that values the father’s role—Matthew even got to “catch” his daughter when she was born on February 2nd, 2024.
Advocacy for Doulas and Progressive Paternity Leave
From their global travels, Matthew observed how other countries treat pregnancy as a natural life event rather than a medical condition. He strongly advocates for the inclusion of doulas and midwives in insurance coverage, given their essential role in supporting both parents. His experiences highlighted the stark differences in parental leave policies worldwide, with some countries offering up to 24 months of government-supported leave—a far cry from the limited options in the U.S.
The Birth of a Book
Inspired by their journey, Matthew authored “The Partner’s Purpose During Pregnancy.” This practical guide offers straightforward, actionable steps to help expectant fathers get involved early and remain supportive throughout the pregnancy. Matthew’s insights are geared towards making the transition into fatherhood less daunting, emphasizing the importance of preparation and involvement.
Matthew Morris’s journey into fatherhood is a testament to the importance of an involved and supportive parenting partner. His stories and insights underscore the need for systemic changes in how we support fatherhood and childbirth in the U.S. For fathers looking to connect and learn, resources like the “Dads with Daughters” podcast and the “Fatherhood Insider” offer invaluable support. For more from Matthew Morris, visit his website at www.thepartnerspurpose.com and follow him on Instagram at @thepartnerspurpose.
TRANSCRIPT
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]:
Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.
Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]:
Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters’ lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, you and I are on this journey together. You know, I’ve got 2 daughters, you’ve got daughters, and we are all rolling in the same direction. We’re all working to raise those strong, independent women that we want for our daughters to become. And hopefully, by now, after 250 episodes that we’ve had of this podcast, you know that we cannot do this alone. You and I cannot do this alone. We have to be able to rely on others.
Christopher Lewis [00:00:55]:
We have to be able to rely on working with one another to be able to lift each other up, to be able to learn and grow from each other, to be able to be the dads that we want to be. None of us have all of the tools, have all of the understanding. None of us have the perfect manual to follow to be that great dad that you want to be. But this podcast is here to be able to give you some, some hints, some tips, some things that you can do to be able to be that father that you want to be. So every week I bring you different guests, different people, people with different experiences, fathers, mothers, other people with resources that can help you to be able to see fatherhood in a little bit different way, provide you some tools for your toolbox, and help you to be able to become that father that you want to be. This week, we got another great guest with us today. Matthew Morris is with us today. Really excited to have him here.
Christopher Lewis [00:01:49]:
And we’re gonna be talking about his own journey in becoming a father. And prior to becoming a father, he and his wife traveled to 15 countries to learn about parenthood and preparation for the birth of their daughter this past February. And, as he says, it’s been a wild ride. And I think for every father, it’s a wild ride when you lead up to to to fatherhood. And and once your daughter’s here, it becomes an even greater ride, and it continues to go on throughout their lives. So I’m really excited to have him here today to talk about fatherhood, talk about his own journey and a little bit more, and to introduce him to you. Matthew, thanks so much for being here today.
Matthew Morris [00:02:28]:
Thank you, Christopher. Glad to be here.
Christopher Lewis [00:02:29]:
It is my pleasure having you here today. Glad that you and I were able to connect and be able to have you talk about your own journey. And one of the first things that I always love to do is turn the clock back in time. So I wanna go back to that first moment that you found out that you were going to be a father to a daughter. What was going through your head?
Matthew Morris [00:02:46]:
My wife was standing at the top of the staircase, and I had just walked in the door, and I heard her scream. And my wife is a hardcore former United States Navy veteran, and she just, like, even keel all the time. Things do not rile her. And when I heard, bat, yeah, from the top of the staircase, I thought one of 2 things has happened. I said, okay. The house is being breached, and we are about to go on the defense, or she’s pregnant. And sure enough, I look up, and she has 3 pregnancy tests in her hands like Wolverine. And I am I book it up the stairs, and she looks at me, and she’s like, can you see the pink line? Can you see it? And mind you, my eyes aren’t what they used to be.
Matthew Morris [00:03:41]:
I’m looking. I’m like, may maybe. I think so. And she goes, okay. You pee on 1, and then we’ll know. And so shortly that was right after Mother’s Day last year. And we were coming back from a wedding, and a woman had wished Shannon. She said happy Mother’s Day.
Matthew Morris [00:04:02]:
And Shannon was like, I’m not a mom, and and we were walking away. And she kinda elbowed me and was like, wouldn’t it be funny if and so I found out initially that that she was pregnant and went in a few weeks later to to verify everything. And then then we knew she was pregnant. Obviously, didn’t know it was gonna be a little girl until a few months later. And the way that we found out that it was gonna be a little girl was we were we were at a family reunion with Shannon’s family. It was a birthday party. And she gets an email, and we’re we’re sitting all sitting around kinda talking, talking. And, again, Shannon Shannon does not get super excited or super emotional about anything.
Matthew Morris [00:04:50]:
She’s so just level headed. And and she puts her phone down. She looks at me and goes, we gotta go. And I said, why? What was going on? She goes, I know what we’re gonna have. And I said, you mean for dinner? She goes, no. For the rest of our lives. And I said, okay. So we say goodbyes, and we go to the haircare store, and she buys a bottle of blue hair dye and a bottle of pink hair dye.
Matthew Morris [00:05:22]:
And we go to her parents’ house, and we said, here’s Matthew what we’re gonna do. I’m gonna blindfold you. I’m gonna dye your hair one color or the other, and that is how we are going to do the gender reveal. And I have a very proud mohawk. And so if you go on her Instagram, there’s a hilarious video of me blindfolded and Shannon with bright pink hair dye, and I take the blindfold off. And as soon as she hands me in the mirror, well, the sun’s behind me, so I look in the mirror, and it just blinds me. So I can’t even say I can’t even tell what I’m looking at myself. And finally, I look around and I see it’s pink, and then that’s that’s how we found out.
Matthew Morris [00:06:04]:
So that was kind of the the spark to our international journey. And now so we’re in fast forward. That was a little over a year ago. We come back to now. Shannon and I made a bet. We have a little boy, we’re going to Brazil. And if we have a little girl, we’re gonna go to Thailand. And so right now, as we are wrapping up our adventure in Chicago, we are prepping to set sail for title.
Matthew Morris [00:06:31]:
And so that in between everywhere that we went from the beginning of 2023 to now. And we had to work through our personal endeavors. So January, February of 2023, Shannon was the tech layoff, and then we found out Shannon was pregnant in April of 2023, and then my separation from the marine corps came in June of 2023. And so we went from dual income, no kids, to dual unemployed with a baby on the way. And there is nothing that is a better catalyst for it’s time to grab life by the horns than realizing, hey. We gotta figure out somehow to eat. And with that, and this comes into the fatherhood aspect, in our study of how childbirth and the medical system of childbirth in the United States is so far behind the rest of the world, unfortunately, we actually made the decision that we didn’t wanna have the baby in the States. And that was a big part of why we left the country.
Matthew Morris [00:07:45]:
So our original plan was to have Maven in Denmark because Denmark, Sweden, that region has a extremely progressive and much safer approach to childbirth, and it’s also significantly cheaper. Even with the cost of flying over there, living temporarily, and paying for the birth out of pocket, all of that would still have been cheaper than going through an uninsured birth in a US medical system. And the big challenge for us was coming off of active duty where almost all of your medical is paid for. When that came to an end, we didn’t have health insurance for childbirth. And so what is normally nothing out of pocket with your insurance policy is between $3,025 total to have a baby in the United States. And in addition to that, the restrictions that are put on expecting moms when they are going through, the tests that are mandatory, the lack of education for dads and partners or birthing partners or whoever that person is that is supporting mom through her pregnancy. It’s such an afterthought in the United States, which is what set us off on putting the information together for the partner’s purpose during pregnancy. So fast forward a few months, our visas were not processed properly, and so we had to come back to the United States when Shannon was 35 weeks pregnant.
Matthew Morris [00:09:31]:
Well, the FAA won’t let you travel at 36 weeks. So it was either be considered an illegal immigrant in a foreign country where we were having a baby or hightail it back to the United States and try and get connected with a midwife and doula team here, which fortunately, we did. So Shannon made the decision that she wanted to have a midwife and doula guided home birth. And so in our apartment in Lincoln Park, Chicago on February 2nd, 2024 at about 1:45 AM. She gave birth with no meds, no anesthesia, just the raw power of being the woman that she is to our daughter. And our birth team coached me through, and I actually got to catch my daughter. I was the quarterback before the hike and had her in my arms and then passed her to the midwife to do all of the immediate post birth things. And baby is healthy and just a a little tornado right now.
Matthew Morris [00:12:56]:
And that divide and conquer team, I stand beside and advocate for work on it. And part of what we’re also trying to advocate for is the use of doulas and midwives to be covered by general insurance. Because that is a big reason why so many people don’t use them is because it’s not considered a necessary medical expense. Well, my advocation to that is it is. It is just as important for the birthing or the pregnancy for me to have someone that I can ask questions of, that I can go to, that has experience so that Shannon didn’t have to in dealing with with pregnancy brain or brain fog or exhaustion or all of the stress that your body and mind undergo during pregnancy, I had a person that I could ask these questions of, get the answers for so that she could focus on her health and the health of the baby.
Christopher Lewis [00:13:57]:
So I guess one of the questions that I would ask, with that whole journey is you took a number of months while she was going through that pregnancy, as you said, to be able to learn more about pregnancy, learn more about what happens in other countries to be able to create this book that you’ve created. And I know that you were out for, I think it was 41 weeks, you said you went to 15 countries. And I guess let’s talk on the high level. What are some of the biggest things that you learned in going to those different countries, seeing what other countries do in comparison to what happens in the United States?
Matthew Morris [00:14:38]:
So saying we were mostly in Sangin. And by and large, there is a different mindset in the way that pregnancy and pregnant people are viewed. My biggest lesson, my biggest learning point was that pregnancy is not a disease. In the United States, we treat pregnancy as a disease. A pregnant mom is looked at as having symptoms. Well, symptoms are the byproduct of illness as opposed to what I viewed there was pregnancy is just part of life. It’s the natural progression of all things culminating in birth, and because it’s treated so much differently, you have significantly lower rates of things like postpartum depression, you have a lower infant mortality rate, you have a lower maternal mortality rate. The other piece is the recovery time.
Matthew Morris [00:15:45]:
So commonly referred to as maternity leave, paternity leave, and what’s referred to as nesting leave. Now in the United States, all of your leave comes from the company. In these areas, the leave is partially compensated by a government organization. So if you take the longest that we saw was 24 months of total family leave, and that leave could be used by either parent, either during or after the pregnancy, and and there was no expiration date. So imagine in the states, you can’t even fathom that. The longest publicly traded company that we have found in the United States is 18 weeks. And that’s good. That’s better for our area.
Matthew Morris [00:16:44]:
But the question that we continue to ask is if you are trying to advocate for employees to come back and remain loyal, what are the things that you’re doing to incentivize them? And what stands out more than anything is companies that that advocate for more family recovery time. And that’s the biggest difference that we’ve seen from overseas to the states.
Christopher Lewis [00:17:08]:
I appreciate you sharing that. And now that you I have transitioned into being a dad, a dad of a daughter, I talk to a lot of dads that step into fatherhood. And fatherhoods can be scary just in its own right in being able to step into that new persona and being able to be there for your child. I hear from a lot of dads with daughters that there’s a particular fear of being a father to a daughter. And I guess for you, what’s your biggest fear in being a father to a daughter?
Matthew Morris [00:17:38]:
That when she comes of age, she will come to me and say, father, I am not prepared to go out on my own. And that encompasses a lot. And when I say come of age, there’s not a number that’s associated with it. She might be ready to set out on her own at 13. She might not be ready to set out on her own until she’s 20. Her development is going to happen on its own timeline. My responsibility as a dad is to hold her hand until it’s time to let go. And when it’s time to let go, I have to have given her every ounce of me so that she’s ready.
Matthew Morris [00:18:20]:
Does that mean that it’s gonna be smooth sailing and she’s gonna have no trials of her own, and she’s never gonna be in a situation where she has to fight for herself or for the other people that she loves and believes in? Absolutely not. But when it’s time for her to fight, she is ready.
Christopher Lewis [00:18:37]:
That’s fair. Now as I mentioned, you have put together this book, this book that you’re putting out into the world to be able to help other dads, the partner’s purpose during pregnancy. Talk to me about that and why you decided that you wanted to take the time to be able to put all of this learning into this, and what are you hoping that people are gonna take out of it?
Matthew Morris [00:18:57]:
Joshua Sharfstein (zero zero four:fifty seven): I put the partner’s purpose during pregnancy together. Number 1, it was my personal way of processing. So on the fortunate side of being unemployed for that period of time, it gave me the head space to sit down and start asking really hard questions, to start reading the books. Right? I read all of them. I read what to expect when you’re expecting, the birth partner, bumpin’, misconceptions, the Mayo Clinic’s guide to pregnancy. Oh, boy. Let me tell you. If, if you’re looking for a captivating read, sit down and and pop that 600 pager open.
Matthew Morris [00:19:35]:
But the reason that I did was I treated Shannon’s pregnancy and the birth of my daughter as my new mission. When we would fly in the marine corps, you would prep for sometimes weeks for one specific mission. And you would begin building that knowledge base of the operating area, the weapon systems that you were going to employ, the teammates that you were going to be fighting with and supporting, and the enemy that had a say in every action that you made, well, this was my new mission. And for me to process the intensity of watching Shannon’s body change, watching her mindset on things change, I had to have an outlet. And my outlet was putting a pen to paper because when I was asking some of these questions from the point of view of an expecting dad, there were no answers. And fortunately, there is now a culture shift in the United States away from the way that our dads were were kinda forced into it. And what I mean by that is I have a very loving and supportive father. Shannon has a very loving and supporting father, but there was no such thing as dad being there after the baby was born.
Matthew Morris [00:21:00]:
Took mom to the hospital, baby was born, and 2, 3 days later, dad’s back at work. And that’s just the way it was. Well, now one of the positives from COVID is the acknowledgment of remote work and the fact that so many jobs can be done from home, which allows you the opportunity to be in proximity to your kids for a longer period of time. And with Partner’s Purpose, our mission is to show that you can have a faster postpartum recovery period. You can reduce postpartum depression and other maternal mental health situations if you start being involved and educated way before baby comes. And the other piece is the books that I listed, they have a place on my bookshelves, and I’m not saying that if you are in this phase of birth not to go study them. Go. Do it.
Matthew Morris [00:22:42]:
And it’s practical. It’s not theoretical. It’s not big universe things. It’s tangible. It’s make your birth plan together. It’s read out loud to your baby before you go to sleep. It’s make her a sandwich. It’s let her cry.
Matthew Morris [00:23:00]:
It’s these things that when you’re in a stressful situation or sorry. When you’re in a a calm situation, it’s like, oh, yeah. That makes sense. But pregnancy is stressful for both parties involved. And so when we can lay out, do this, do this, do this, I am taking that thought out and replacing it with very basic, simple muscle memory. It’s just like training. Marine Corps, you do rifle training. You learn every single in and out aspect of your weapon so that when you are in an extremely high stress environment, you don’t have to stop and think, wait, hang on.
Matthew Morris [00:23:40]:
How do I take it off safety? How do I aim? No. You can be running on 36 hours of no sleep and half a stale piece of bread, and you still know how to make your weapon function when you need it to function. Maybe not that extreme in the average American pregnancy, but the concepts are the same. If I can lay your steps out for you, if I can show you ways to be involved, then all you have to do is pick it up, open it to any page and say, I know how to filter your feed. It’s one of the other notes. I know how to invest in our education so that we can develop informed opinions, so that we can build our birth team together. So that if the doctor or the midwife or the doula or the nurse practitioner tells us we have to do something, we know what that means, and we can ask questions on if we really do have to do that or, and this is my favorite, we’ve always done it that way, so that’s why we do it. Well, just because something has always been done does not necessarily mean it’s the right way.
Christopher Lewis [00:24:49]:
Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5 where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready?
Matthew Morris [00:24:56]:
Yes, sir. Let’s do it.
Christopher Lewis [00:24:57]:
In one word, what is fatherhood?
Matthew Morris [00:24:59]:
Exciting.
Christopher Lewis [00:25:00]:
Let’s think down the road, 18, 20 years. If I was to talk to your daughter, how would you want her to describe you?
Matthew Morris [00:25:06]:
Empowering and encouraging. I want her to, at no point, ever question if I have her back. I also acknowledge that probably is going to mean there are going to be moments where she is pissed at the decisions that I make. But if I’ve set her up for success to take on the world whatever way she chooses to take it on, then good. I have done my job.
Christopher Lewis [00:25:31]:
Who inspires you to be a better dad?
Matthew Morris [00:25:33]:
My wife holds me accountable for being a better dad. My daughter inspires me to be a better dad.
Christopher Lewis [00:25:40]:
Now you’ve given a bunch of pieces of advice today, things that you’ve learned so far. You’ve got more to learn as well as your daughter gets older. But as we finish up today, what’s one piece of advice you’d wanna give to every dad?
Matthew Morris [00:25:51]:
Don’t ever let your kindness be mistaken for weakness. You have now entered into a world where you have something that is precious, especially if you have a daughter. And my baby is only 6 months old and I see this with strangers. They will come up to her and she is beautiful, and cute, and bubbly, and engaging, and interacting. And the first thing they wanna do is reach out and squeeze her. That is not an acceptable course of action for anyone to attempt to physically touch my infant daughter without my express consent. Basically, if I don’t give you permission to give her a hug, to grab her arm, to grab her cheek, you doing that is a violation of her personal space, and you might get smacked. If I don’t get you, her mom will.
Matthew Morris [00:26:50]:
And as a dad, it does not matter what your culture is. It does not matter what your background is. It does not matter what other people tell you. You protect what is yours the best way that you believe it to be. And don’t ever doubt yourself for doing the thing that you believe is in the best interest of your daughter.
Christopher Lewis [00:27:14]:
Now if people wanna find out more about you, your book, and more about what you’re doing next, where’s the best place for them to go?
Christopher Lewis [00:28:04]:
If you’ve enjoyed today’s episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fatheringtogether.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there’s a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week all geared to helping you raise strong and powered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.
We’re all in the same boat, And it’s full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen. Get out and be the world to them.
