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In this week’s Dads with Daughters podcast, we welcomed Katie Koestner, an influential activist and the executive director of the Take Back the Night Foundation, who shared powerful insights on teaching daughters about consent, autonomy, and resilience. Here are some key takeaways from their enlightening conversation.
Understanding Consent and Autonomy
Katie Koestner underscores the critical importance of educating daughters about consent and bodily autonomy. Consent is not a one-time agreement that cannot be retracted; it can be revoked at any moment. Katie emphasizes teaching daughters the difference between regret and rape, highlighting that a lack of initial resistance does not imply consent. This understanding is vital for fostering an environment where daughters feel empowered to assert their rights and boundaries.
Healing from Trauma: A Collective Journey
Healing from trauma is an arduous yet rewarding journey that necessitates patience and collective support. Katie reflects on her own experiences, noting that regaining power and control over one’s life is a long-term commitment. It’s essential for parents, especially fathers, to support their daughters through this process without taking away their agency. Fathers should help their daughters navigate decisions collaboratively, emphasizing that the journey and growth are more important than immediate outcomes.
Mentorship and Community Involvement
Community involvement and mentorship programs like Take Back the Night are instrumental in fostering resilience and support networks for young women. Katie encourages fathers to guide their daughters in engaging with empowering communities that can offer strength and solidarity. Participating in such programs helps build a sense of belonging and mutual support, which are critical for personal empowerment.
Fostering Equal and Respectful Relationships
To raise daughters who thrive in healthy, respectful relationships, fathers need to challenge archaic notions of women needing to be “taken care of.” Katie advocates for teaching daughters the value of equality and collaboration within relationships. It’s crucial for fathers to set an example by treating women with respect and equality in their own lives, reflecting these values in everyday interactions. Encourage daughters to seek partners who value collaboration, mutual respect, and independence rather than falling into roles dictated by outdated stereotypes.
Practical Tools for Empowerment
Katie offers practical advice for fathers wanting to empower their daughters. She suggests affirming their worth based on their talents, energy, and intellect, rather than appearance. Role-playing challenging scenarios can also help daughters prepare for difficult situations and build the confidence to handle them independently. Katie’s conversation with Dr. Lewis reiterates the significance of dads actively contributing to their daughter’s self-respect and ability to navigate the world confidently.
Take Back the Night and Advocacy
Katie remains a staunch advocate against sexual assault through her work with the Take Back the Night Foundation, which organizes events to raise awareness and support survivors. She encourages community involvement in various forms, such as bike races, walks, and vigils, to promote solidarity and resilience. Fathers can support this cause by participating with their daughters, fostering a shared commitment to ending sexual violence.
In conclusion, the episode with Katie Koestner on the “Dads with Daughters” podcast provides valuable insights into raising empowered, resilient daughters. Through understanding consent, supporting the healing process, fostering respectful relationships, and active community involvement, fathers can profoundly impact their daughters’ lives, guiding them toward independence and confidence.
TRANSCRIPT
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]:
Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]:
Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters’ lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. And, you know, every week, I love being able to sit down, talk to you, and work with you as you’re walking through this journey that you’re on to be the best dad that you want to be, and working with your daughters to be those strong, independent women that you want them to be as well. That’s why every week we have this opportunity to be able to sit down, talk, and to be able to learn and grow from each other, but also from the people that come on to our show. And it is really important that we’re open to learning and growing and being able to truly hear what people have to say and to be able to take that in, internalize it, and turn it into something tangible that we can then use to be those dads that we want to be. And that’s why every week I love being able to bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that can help you on this journey. And today, we’ve got another great guest with us. Katie Kessler is with us today.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:22]:
And Katie is a activist on sexual assault. She has worked for many years in the Take Back the Night Foundation. She is the current director of the Take Back the Night Foundation. She has a a story that we all should be here to be able to see what we can do to be able to assist our own daughters in having healthy relationships, but also to be safe in their lives as they get older. And I’m really excited to be able to have her here and to be able to have her share her story and also to provide you with some some things to think about as we’re moving forward in our own parenting journey. Katie, thanks so much for being here today.
Katie Koestner [00:02:07]:
Absolutely. Chris, thank you for having me.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:09]:
It is my pleasure having you here today. I’m really excited to be able to share your story because it’s not an easy story. And definitely, it’s not I’m sure it’s not been an easy journey as you have become the advocate that you’ve become in sexual assault. And I I know that not everyone has heard your name before and not everyone knows that story, but only you can tell that story in your way. Can you tell tell me a little bit more? Can you share your story with us and what led you to being the activist that you are today on sexual assault?
Katie Koestner [00:02:43]:
Absolutely. I am delighted to do so. So I think for all the dads out there, importantly, I am the daughter of an FBI agent and a homemaking mom. I grew up outside of Atlanta, Georgia, and then my dad was transferred to Harrisburg, Pennsylvania when I was in middle school, and I had a younger sister. I was pretty darn ambitious in every way, and, loved, I would say, everything from softball and swimming and field hockey to clarinet and trying to miss none on the SAT. I won a scholarship and lived in Japan when I was 16 on to 17 in high school. I was adventurous in every sort of the word. I decided to go up to college and went to the College William and Mary in Virginia as I double majored in Japanese and chemistry.
Katie Koestner [00:03:34]:
And the orientation was a whirlwind whirlwind experience, and I met a very handsome he could speak 3 languages, wanted to be a brain surgeon, played a great game of soccer, incredible, potential prince charming and well beyond what I had encountered in my life so far and quickly, you know, went out and hung out with him. And he asked me out to dinner probably the 3rd weekend and to the fanciest, most expensive French restaurant in town. And any of you who don’t know my story, I’m not gonna share all of it here because it’s on TED Talks, and I’ve only lectured at 5,000 schools, and I’m sure there’s clips here and there. I’ve been on open Good Morning, American, CNN, NBC News, lectured in front of a quarter of a 1000000 people on the mall in DC, at the United Nations, at the Pentagon, just a few places along the way. But the end of the story is I simply trusted this guy. He paid for a very expensive dinner, and I thought he would respect my being a virgin and waiting till I was married. I wasn’t drunk at dinner nor that night. And I simply told this guy no.
Katie Koestner [00:04:39]:
And for historic purposes, I’m sure I am older than many of the dads, who are listening. I might be younger than a few, but I was 18, and this was 1990. And I am the first woman in history to speak out nationally and publicly as the victim of date rape and appeared on the cover of Time Magazine at age 18. So I I stopped there just for a second because I think any dad listening is wondering now, when I already alluded to the fact my dad was an FBI agent, whether this, perpetrator was going to live to see another day when I knew exactly where he lived and could talk tell my dad. But, unfortunately, back then, my dad said I shouldn’t have had the boy to my room and it wouldn’t have happened. And while I think he probably had mixed emotions, and I don’t wanna oversimplify, I do want to say that he was very traditional and very protective and very conservative, which means in high school, if a boy came to get me, he would probably fingerprint the guy’s the front doorknob. He would wear his arsenal strapped on the outside as he answered the door. He would usher the potential boyfriend to the family room with the dead animals hanging on the wall and then motion to the back of the house where the targets for bows and arrows were set up.
Katie Koestner [00:05:59]:
He was easily intimidating to most guys. So before I go on, I I would say that my dad’s never heard me speak in all my life, which is hard, and it’s one of my motivations for coming on your show, Chris, because I have two main themes that I would get across, and then we can delve into the details. But I’m gonna start with the end first because this is way too important to me. My father told me what to do in regard to boys. He was very protective, and I never I never had a bad boyfriend in high school. Maybe that’s because my dad was looming in the backdrop at all times, But I will also say to all the dads, protecting your daughter does not serve her. She’s gonna have to do it herself at some point. And if not in high school, then when? So if she can learn how to fend for herself and navigate situations on her own, you are gonna have a much stronger, resilient, confident daughter who will be able to suss out when things are not safe by herself and calling you for help is not what you want to have happen.
Katie Koestner [00:07:11]:
You want her to navigate the hard situation, to come home that night or next morning at breakfast, and to say, dad, I did it all by myself. Sensed this one comment he made. I was around his friends who were making fun of women, and I knew better that this was not what I wanted, and I’m deserving of more. Do you want her to say that when what I wanted, and I’m deserving of more. You want her to say that when she’s 14, when she’s 16, and then you’ll know when she goes off into the world, she’s gonna do it better on her own because she had you to fall back on if she had to. But I would send her out on every date saying, you’ve got this. You deserve respect. It’s not about your appearance.
Katie Koestner [00:07:58]:
It’s about your amazing talent, your energy, your grace, and your brilliance. If you compliment her just on her appearance, you’re gonna teach a frail daughter. I don’t care how pretty she is, but you’ve got to compliment her on something other than that. So I start with, dads, don’t protect your daughters. Let them teach themselves how to protect themselves. And the second thing I would say is be mindful of how you talk about women at all times. Be mindful of what you watch, what screens you’re on, how you do or don’t comment on women in movies, women in television, women in the media, women in politics, women in your work workforce. What do you say about women that’s the same or different from men? And the more you treat all genders the same in terms of your analysis and your accolades or your criticisms, the better off your daughter is gonna learn how to navigate the world through equity and respect.
Katie Koestner [00:08:57]:
And then lastly, even if you’re separated from the birth mother of your daughter, even if she is the worst person you’ve ever met, God forbid, always hold your hate inside and treat everyone even when they’re wrongfully treating you, even if they’re a train wreck of a human, it’s really important that you teach your daughter that denigration is always wrong even when somebody else is wrong. So sorry that was a mouthful, Chris, but, like, I wanted to get those things out on the table and get dads really thinking about them because those two important things are probably the most helpful I can be. And I I would also footnote that I do have children now of my own. I have 16 year old twins. They’re not girls. They’re boys. And so I I’m on the flip side of your your equation. I’m a mom of boys, not a dad of a daughter, but I think we could talk about that later on is, like, how do you parent all your kids and how when your daughters are out on dates, if they if they actually like boys, who knows? What does that look like? Because I’m raising my sons.
Katie Koestner [00:10:02]:
I think they’re both into girls, maybe not quite so much yet, but I I think that’s the track they’re on. I’m not too judgy. People are people, but I definitely want them to be somebody’s best date and best memory even if they’re not in men. I want them to be good, humble, respectful young men, and that’s what you should be asking your daughters to look for if they’re into men into boys. So and don’t look me up if your daughter wants a date. Like, my boys are not once, like, ready for, like, full time studying and the other one’s too much on his games to be even intriguing to a girl yet. So don’t look me up for dates for your daughter.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:40]:
I love what you shared right there. And I think and I have to say, I’m sorry that you had that experience with your own father and but I appreciate what you had to say and the advice that you gave to fathers because I think it is so important for us as men and as fathers to be able to support our daughters in many different ways. And you talked about the fact that for you, one of the the first things that you mentioned was to treat your daughter to fend for herself, to be able to navigate situations by herself. I want you to think back to your own father and what could he have done for you that would have allowed you or made you feel that he was giving you the ability to fend for yourself? And what can other dads do tangibly to be able to start on that path with their own daughters?
Katie Koestner [00:11:29]:
Yeah. Fantastic question, Chris. And this is called, I would say, one of those conversations of courage. And not every human is wired to have this kind of conversation. And, I mean, I’m gonna be honest. A lot of people aren’t comfortable with their own sexualities, their own relationships, and and men and women both. And I’ll footnote it with this. If you’re a dad and wants to have what I’m about to describe with your daughter, And you’re like, oh, crap.
Katie Koestner [00:11:55]:
I totally can’t do that. I don’t have that vocabulary. I couldn’t come up with that sentence structure. This makes me feel awkward. I I could look I’d be, like, so nervous. Like, that’s totally okay. Not everybody has to be you know, not everyone’s a brain surgeon. Not everyone’s a psychologist.
Katie Koestner [00:12:10]:
Not everyone’s into like, you everybody has different skill sets. What I want to have happen right now is for the dads listening to hear me model it and then say, if I don’t think I can say this, I should at least tell my daughter. There’s a few things I’m really awkward at saying that I want you to hear and then listen to this podcast. Push play, like, right here. Like, oh, I’ve listened to this woman, Katie, once, and she was trying to say it. I I can’t do it the same way, but pretend it’s my voice and I’m your dad. And, like, seriously, I don’t I don’t care. You it takes a team of, like, 8 or 9 people to raise a a great kid, and you have to have a lot of role models and a lot and all that matters to me at the end of the day is is intent and try.
Katie Koestner [00:12:54]:
I intend to do this. I tried to do this. I might not be great at it. People will see your intent and that you tried. So here’s kind of what I would say. You said, how could my dad have done it? And it’s very simple. You’d you say, like, she’s really interested in a guy or somebody, a date, a prospect. She’s going out to a party.
Katie Koestner [00:13:11]:
She’s going to her first homecoming. She’s going to the think of any number of potential social situations. The best thing you can say is, darling, sweetie, whatever you say. Jenny, Susie, you know, Aloysius, whatever her name is. You say, I know tonight’s really important. I don’t know how many of these kind of social things you’ve done, but what’s really important to me is that you know you are that good. You know you deserve respect. You know what your morals, your values are.
Katie Koestner [00:13:40]:
You know what you want to to have happen tonight. Keep that in mind throughout the whole time. You wanna walk away from tonight feeling positive, respected. You wanna come home and feel like tomorrow’s gonna be a great day. And if someone treats you at all with disrespect, you know that you don’t have to take it. You don’t have to stay in that environment. There’s never an okay reason where someone should say anything that’s degrading. No one should touch you in a way that makes you uncomfortable, and you can navigate a way out.
Katie Koestner [00:14:12]:
If you want to, we can role play some of the ways you could do that tonight. If you think you’re all set, I’m here a phone call away, a text away if you need me. That’s all. You just just remind her she’s worth it. Put her eye on the prize, which is, like, at the end of the night, she wants to come home safe, respected, and tomorrow is gonna be a great day. And that’s it. You don’t have to go into the nitty gritty. You don’t have to say, like, what if he tries to like, girls might feel awkward about that.
Katie Koestner [00:14:40]:
That could be a different class. Like, if somebody tried to touch you, how are you gonna if she wants to go there. But if you’re just on square one, that’s all you have to say. It’s like, you’ve got this. Not like go, oh, you look so pretty, sweetie. You don’t need don’t say her dress is great, her skirt’s cute, her hair looks great. That’s fine, But, really, more important than how she looks is being being confident in how she should be treated all all night or all day. Like, whatever the event is, focus more on how she should feel and end up being respected.
Katie Koestner [00:15:12]:
Not like I mean, do logistics. How’s she gonna get home? Who’s driving? What happens? You could do some logistics. But if you just constantly say you deserve respect, you’re amazing, you’re talented, how do you want this night to end? Just focus on the the finish line all the time. I mean, what do athletes do? What it what’s anyone who wants to a date is nothing more than an event where you wanna succeed. And succeed is, like, be safe and not be assaulted and have fun.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:38]:
Now one of the things you talked about in your story, you talked at the beginning that you met the gentleman at college, kind of the prince charming effect in many different ways. And then you talked about the importance of really as you’re parenting and as you’re working, not in in our situation here, in my situation, working with my daughters to identify and try to figure out what to look for in a relationship, whether it be with a man, with a woman, whatever it might be. I guess as you think back to your experiences and the experiences of others that you’ve spoken to on your podcast, Dear Katie, survivor stories or in your experience in speaking in so many different places. What advice would you give to fathers that are listening that could help them with their daughters to be able to navigate those relationships and help them to provide them with the tools that they should be looking for in those healthy relationships.
Katie Koestner [00:16:41]:
A healthy relationship, you’re gonna hear a lot of working together, collaboration. It’s not me, me, me, me. The partner or guy who’s all about himself and constantly boasting or bragging, he’s actually frail. Like, frail in his ego in that he might need to also eventually use his partner as part of his power play. And anyone who simply talks about themselves, their achievements, it’s fine to be a high achiever. That’s great. It’s fine to be talented and smart, but it’s really important to find a partner who’s also equally interested in having a partner who is also talented, also brilliant, also smart, and wants to, like, do things collaboratively, not for. You know, old school men are like, I’ll do this for you.
Katie Koestner [00:17:30]:
I’ll take care of you. That language is dead. Nobody should be taken care of anymore. We’re not in the dark ages. So I think the woman today needs to dad to say, you’ve got this on your own, and the best thing you can hope for is a collaborator, not a take care of her because no one’s gonna be able to take care of anyone else unless you’re being purchased, essentially. Being taken care of means you have less power, less equality, less confidence. No one needs to be taken care of. I think that this is not to say, and I wanna nuance this, you can have 2 totally different lanes.
Katie Koestner [00:18:08]:
And I’ll even go so far as to say it’s fine if one is a full time stay at home parent, and all they want to be is a, maybe, full time mom. I wanna have 5 kids. I wanna bake cookies. I wanna clean the house. I wanna be the PTA. I wanna do all I wanna volunteer. That’s all fine as long as it’s a pure choice. So, I mean, the gender roles, who cares? But the idea is, is there respect and valuation that’s equitable between the partners? And that’s a lot that’s thinking way ahead.
Katie Koestner [00:18:40]:
But at the root of a relationship, when you start out, you can get your daughter thinking about how how does this partner value what I do? How does he or they see what I do? And if she’s being taught and trained that she needs someone to be taking care of her, that’s gonna only cripple her long term safety and success.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:02]:
I appreciate that as well because I think you’re right. I mean, I know in my own situation with my own daughters, I don’t want them to feel crippled by to their success as you just mentioned. I want them to be able to have those healthy relationships. And
Katie Koestner [00:19:15]:
Yeah. I think what I’d like to say, Chris, is it’s gloriously amazing to be the power couple. Seriously, who wouldn’t want that? You see you see a few that are still, like, kept wise and, you know, people kind of pity them now. Nobody’s like, oh, what a glorious, fabulous relationship you have because all you do is dress up like a Barbie doll, hence the movie. But I think it’s an age of glorious and we went through some individual like, you might go back. We’re so old, Chris. Like, the eighties, you know, we had all the, like, me, me, me’s. Then we had you know, the decades are interesting when we look back at them, but I think we’re we’re hopefully going into an age of this amazing it’s the combination of individuality that blends together into cooperation to build something even more beautiful.
Katie Koestner [00:20:08]:
And I do think, you know, partnerships and relationships can be that good. It’s really there’s no such thing as a renaissance person anymore. Like, it’s impossible. We have micro slices of everything in the world. So the best thing we can hope for is 2 really dedicated, kind, amazing, committed people who say, like, things are gonna get hard. That’s I actually, that brings me to a really good point. Fights are good. Disagreements because you know why? The moment she comes your daughter comes home and is like, oh my god.
Katie Koestner [00:20:39]:
He made me so mad. You that’s good. That’s like, okay. Well, how did how did you resolve it? Because if you can’t work together and not that’s the tell. That’s like the next level tell. If you have to think about the first date tells, like, where he makes some random joke or he can’t pay look you in the eye if he’s checking his phone every second. If he’s asking you who your follow these are warning signs. Is he gonna say, why are you following him? What do you see? Like, jealousy is a really bad one.
Katie Koestner [00:21:08]:
Telling, like, why you why you not not allowing your daughter to have other male friends. That’s a big red flag. Like, if a guy goes out with you and I mean, hello. It’s it’s 2024. Like, if you can’t have male friends I remember I was in the chess club in 6th grade, and I was, like, the only girl. So I only hung out with boys, and I was not dating the entire chess club. Let me just tell you. No.
Katie Koestner [00:21:34]:
It was not like that. I was just like, these are the cool, smart guys. Like, I know. And luckily, back then, I had male friends, but I think you’ve gotta have a male partner who’s good. You can talk to a guy and not be jealous. Like, even if he’s cuter than you. Even if he’s better at soccer than you. Like, who cares? Like, a secure guy is what you want.
Katie Koestner [00:21:56]:
He’s not constantly jealous because he’s ultimately gonna be manipulative and and doing power plays. That I would say that’s another one. I’m thinking small things. I don’t care about, like, send you flowers and open the door. Who cares? Sometimes people get hung up on, like, oh my god. I can’t see the guy who holds the door. I’m like, give it up. Like, he’s just trying to be nice.
Katie Koestner [00:22:16]:
Hold the door for him. If he sends you flowers, send him flowers. I think you break all the rules. And if he spies into silly stuff like guys can’t get flowers, what’s wrong with you? Again, it’s 2024. I mean, maybe you don’t wanna paint your nails blue as a guy, but that’s fine. But if they buy into too many rigid stereotypes, there’s going to be a problem down the road. And I think building in that, like, wow, creativity is helpful because later in life, the more open minded and creative someone is by the time they get to our age, Chris, you bet they’re gonna get really dry and boring if they don’t have a creative open mind. You wanna see all of those awesome traits.
Katie Koestner [00:22:56]:
I guess I last thing is do pay attention. I hate to say this, but many rapists, we didn’t talk about this, many rapists themselves were also victimized. So do pay attention. No. It’s a little bit let’s say a few stats. Like, 1 in 4 women or girls is raped sexually assaulted in her lifetime. About 1 in 6 to 1 in 8 men the same. Now the difference is the 1 in 6 to 8 men often go on to become perpetrators.
Katie Koestner [00:23:22]:
And the 1 in 4 women, a lot of them go on to be victimized again because once you’ve had it happen once, there’s such a huge blow to your confidence and ego as a woman. Many women turn that against themselves, their shame and blame, and many men turn it outward as anger. So a young man’s own experience with relationships and and or abuse is really important to find. I mean, you don’t wanna, like, quiz him on the first date and give him an interview, but you do wanna find out and see how do they if they have a mother, how do they treat their mother? If they have a father, how do they treat their father? How do they do they fight constantly? Is there a lot of tension? I hate to say it. It’s not what they what do your parents look like? Because then I’ll know how you look when you look old. Okay. That’s fine. If the girl’s like, I wanna see your dad.
Katie Koestner [00:24:10]:
Is he bald to know if he’ll be bald? No offense taken. But, like, I think that’s so not important. I mean, it is more important to see how they interact, though, with their siblings and with their parents. That part’s really important.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:26]:
You know, those numbers are really staggering. And, you know, when I think of 1 in 4 girls experiencing this type of trauma, I guess one question that I would ask of you is thinking about that stat, how can fathers support their daughters if they come to them and say, I’ve experienced this trauma?
Katie Koestner [00:24:46]:
Okay. Two best sentences ever. Ready? 1 is well, 3. 1st is, I’m so glad you trusted me enough to tell me. 2nd is, I’m so sorry this happened to you. And thirdly is, what can I do to help you right now? That’s it. And then everything else you’re gonna have to figure out as you go because everyone’s gonna be different. The situation might be urgent.
Katie Koestner [00:25:08]:
It might be immediate danger. It might be and I’ll just nutshell it this way. There’s 3 things to think about all the time. First one and I’ll do them in order of expiration date. If it’s recent, medical attention is paramount. Medical attention also means collecting evidence. You have 3 to 5 days after a sexual assault or rape to get evidence collected. It’s free.
Katie Koestner [00:25:29]:
It’s done at usually a hospital rape crisis center. It can be held evidence can be held for up to 2 years. There’s no pressing immediacy to to go forward with the district attorney. But if you don’t get the evidence, it can’t be used later. And that’s important because what many of the dads thinking about right now, it may not make sense. 84% of sexual assaults involve someone the victim knows. Trust, likes, not a stranger off the street. So if you get your thinking evidence collected, well, we already know who it is.
Katie Koestner [00:25:57]:
Even microscopic patterns of bruising and tearing on the victim can prove what her body position was in, whether she was asleep, passed out, if she was up against a wall. Like, all of it now is so great and scientifically proven that can help sway a jury if there was ever a trial about the likelihood of consent. So medical, medical, medical. And then, of course, pregnancy, STIs, all potential and have them looked at immediately. And, obviously, we’ve got a shape shifting goings on about what to do about unwanted pregnancies, including through rape across the country. So you’ll have to think about what state you’re in and what your okay. So that’s first. And second after medical is reporting options.
Katie Koestner [00:26:39]:
If it’s within 8 years, most states will take a rape case for criminal prosecution. If a girl is a minor when this happens, it might even be longer. But mindfully, let’s nuance this a little bit. Let’s say she’s 14 and her boyfriend’s 17. That could be statutory rape in most states, even if it’s her boyfriend. So if your daughter is 14 having sex with her 17 or 18 year old boyfriend, that technically could be rape in most every state in the country. I’m not sure you wanna prosecute her boyfriend if she really likes him, if you find out they had sex, but I’m just letting you know. If indeed it was an adult, let’s say it was her 30 year old soccer coach, that’s definitely gonna be sexual abuse of a minor, and the statute of limitations on that can be much longer.
Katie Koestner [00:27:25]:
It can be entirely a whole lifetime. So the age does matter and the state does matter for how long you have to criminally prosecute. Luckily, luckily, Take Back the Night, the foundation has started. The, the Take Back the Night predates me by a lot. It’s over 50 years old as a movement around the world to end sexual violence and support survivors. But over 20 years ago, I corralled all the event holders and created the foundation. But we, about 4 years ago, also put together something called the sexual assaults victims legal support hotline. So that is so important.
Katie Koestner [00:28:02]:
It’s 1567 shatter for any dad listening. That’s free. It’s confidential, and it puts you through to an attorney who’s steeped in this kind of information who can go over your rights and options. I just put that out there in case someone’s all of a sudden interested. But that that’s criminal. Then you also we have 2 more systems of reporting of justice. So I think of them as the 3 c’s. We have the criminal system, then secondly, we have the civil system.
Katie Koestner [00:28:30]:
Civil is where let’s say your daughter was assaulted by the soccer coach at school. She could potentially sue the school. You you know, you all could because of sexual assault of a minor and failure to protect her and all kinds of things. A civil suit, you usually just have 2 years. Again, there’s some exceptions. The third one, though, is the campus reporting system. If it’s a college, you have as long as the perpetrators affiliated with the college, you can report it and have some sort of adjudication. If it was your high school or elementary school or middle school, same deal.
Katie Koestner [00:29:05]:
There’s also a school campus system. So remember, criminal, civil, and campus are three areas where you can report. And that legal support hotline I just mentioned, 567 shatter, is a great option to learn about any and all. The third thing so we did first is medical attention. 2nd is reporting. The third thing to tell her is emotional or long term support and healing. There’s no expiration date. Obviously, that can be done anytime.
Katie Koestner [00:29:33]:
There’s no one size fits all. It could be their rabbi. It could be their priest. It could be a professional rape crisis counselor. It could be online BetterHelp. It could be there’s a million different ways to get emotional support, but it takes more than one person to heal. Meaning, the victim by themselves almost always benefits from having someone else to talk to. And sometimes the parent needs also support and counseling.
Katie Koestner [00:29:57]:
You’re a secondary trauma victim. You’re trying to help your daughter, and it can feel exhausting. So don’t hesitate to do good self care for you and your partner along the way or your other children. You know, it can be so devastating and frustrating, and the spin out can include everything from drug addiction, alcohol addiction, suicide, eating disorders, like metal, all kinds of depression, it can be really rough. Bodily trauma of a sexual nature is just really hard to process.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:28]:
One of the things that I guess from what you 2 were talking about is that education is important. And especially health and wellness education when it comes to our children’s bodies and helping them to understand that. What would you say are some practical steps that fathers can take to educate their daughters about consent and what they should know for themselves as they go out into the world?
Katie Koestner [00:30:53]:
Well, some schools do a really good job of consent education. Many do not. But essentially, that was the whole if anyone researches back into my case, when I was raped at William and Mary, the entire country and William and Mary’s policy had sexual assault and rape as only happening to women by definition because only women were property and rape was a crime of property. That’s the history of it. You know, when you hear the phrase damaged goods, damaged goods basically meant a woman was no longer a virgin. She’d be more expensive to marry off, and that’s where that phrase came from. And I was the one who came along at 30 3 years ago, Chris, and said, I’m not damaged goods. And if a man doesn’t wanna marry me, I don’t wanna marry him.
Katie Koestner [00:31:37]:
And why is rape the only crime where force is required? If I reached out and said, give me your money and you had your wallet in your hand and I just took it, I wouldn’t have to you wouldn’t have to say, well, she punched me to take it. If I took your wallet, I stole from you. Like, whether or not you, like, had a very nice gold watch on, you could be, you know, wearing expensive clothes. No one could say, oh, you must give away lots of money and be rich. Why would you miss your wallet? You were asking for it. But I go back to consent because I helped rewrite the law to say it should be simply the lack of consent, not the action of resistance. And dads, dads, dads, that’s critical. Your daughter doesn’t have to fight off her attacker, and she doesn’t even have to say no even though that would be great, I’m sure, in your minds.
Katie Koestner [00:32:26]:
But if she freezes up and doesn’t feel like she can do anything and just lays there, that’s still not consent. So it’s really important for you to validate. Like, don’t rank how she responded. Like, if only you had been, like, superwoman and had out your gold braces and your golden whip and, like, your steel belt, you know, and gotten the guy. Like, who cares? It’s over. It was still wrong. It’s not, like, more wrong or less wrong. It’s just wrong wrong.
Katie Koestner [00:32:53]:
So all rape is wrong wrong. There’s not like, oh my gosh. I here’s a fun story, Chris. In all the education I do, one time I was talking to some boys in high school, and one was like, but, you know, what if she leads me on? And I just get it’s I’m I’m at the point in a return. And I said, oh my gosh. That’s so that sounds so interesting. Like so let’s just run this through. Like, imagine you’re over at your girlfriend’s house and you’re making out on the sofa because her parents are gone out for the weekend or out of town, like, for dinner or something.
Katie Koestner [00:33:22]:
They’re out out, and you 2 were just going at it, and you’re at this point, you know, return. And then all of a sudden, at the back door, you hear the jingling of the keys. The parents are unexpectedly home. I said, young man, I know exactly what you would do. You’d holler out, like, mister and missus Smith, you think you could just wait outside for a couple of minutes? I’m almost done with your daughter, and it’s the point of no return for me, and I just can’t stop right now. You know, like, the absurdity. Right? Like, any there’s no such thing. We’re not animals.
Katie Koestner [00:33:50]:
We can totally stop. Even if it’s uncomfortable, awkward, embarrassing, horrible, there’s no such thing as we’re not out of our mind and body having sex. So I think it’s really important to tell your daughter, like, if all of a sudden it’s hurting, if it doesn’t feel good, whatever her I don’t know what the values of your dads are, but whatever they are, she should know. There’s no point at which it’s too late to say no. I say when someone said to me, Chris, once, they said, when is rape regret? And I said regret is when you change your mind afterwards. Rape is when you change your mind in the middle and they don’t stop. If you change your mind after after and say, I shouldn’t have done that, that’s regret. It’s not rape.
Katie Koestner [00:34:31]:
If you change your mind, 5 minutes in, if they keep going, it’s still rape. So I think those are those are nuanced things for dads to hear, but I think if they can talk to their daughter, and that sounds like a way awkward conversation for most dads, but just put the podcast on again. This is sex ed consent ed 101.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:49]:
You know, the other thing you just talked about was the fact that healing takes time, and it takes effort. And it’s it’s, something that’s going to be a multi year entire life situation. So talk to me about the process that you had to go through, but also that what you tell to other survivors in regards to what it looks like to regaining power, regaining your life, but also are there things that dads can do to be able to support their daughters on that journey?
Katie Koestner [00:35:21]:
I’ll start with the last part of your question first. Things dads should not do is take away agency. Meaning, here’s the difference and nuance there. Taking away agency, it means not doing everything for them or telling them what to do. Taking weight, that’s taking away agency. Giving agency means let’s make a list together and let’s do the research. If you’re up for it, help me do the research. If not, I’m the dad.
Katie Koestner [00:35:47]:
I I’ll take this on. I’ll make the whole list of options that I can find. Then I’ll review them. Let’s think about them together. The best thing a dad can do or anyone could do is start to collaborate and build more control and power and agency back into the victim. The more you here here’s a good small point. If they really want to try if you wanna put the guy in jail, let let’s say the traditional dad reaction, we need to put him in jail. You know what? The average rapist rapes 12 to 17 times before going to jail.
Katie Koestner [00:36:19]:
The conviction rape on sexual violence is the lowest of any crime. This is the tough reality. It’s fine. So jail time is not likely. However, the entire process of seeking power and control and some sort of I tried is that in and of itself has to be honored. And so often, I think I hate to ever stereotype men, but men sometimes get caught up on the outcome instead of the process. Men sometimes wanna come up with the answer instead of talk it through. You know, that’s a total stereotype.
Katie Koestner [00:36:52]:
Women are like, I just wanna talk to you about this. I don’t need an answer, and I wanna get men better at like, I’m very outcome driven, Chris. Like, seriously, like, I’m just one on the SAT. I’m a math girl. I’m a science girl. I like the data. I like to crunch the numbers. I like to win.
Katie Koestner [00:37:09]:
I like to be successful. I like to speak in front of a quarter of a 1000000 people. You know, I’m very, very driven. So but I also like the process because what I did helped. So I’ll go back now to the other part of your question. So dads should sit with the process. Don’t take away the agency. Don’t provide the outcome.
Katie Koestner [00:37:27]:
Don’t get to the finish line. Let your daughter run the marathon herself. She’s got to. However, what happened in my world was a little unique because there was no name for what happened to me. So I literally had to research everything old school before the Internet, go to the library, get some books, read law books at the law school at William and Mary. I did what I could because I was confident enough in every aspect of my life that I could do this. And I got there in high school and in middle school. Like, I had already felt like the one good thing I will say my parents did is they they’re like, do everything.
Katie Koestner [00:38:04]:
They always said you’re never good enough, but they were they were also like, do everything. They never limited what I could do except for going to MIT. I wanted to go to MIT. Sorry. Well, they said we don’t have enough money for MIT, and there’s not enough girls there. That’s what my mom said. Anyway, that aside, I think what helped me so much was I learned and I taught and I sat in it and I did everything. I changed laws.
Katie Koestner [00:38:27]:
I tested on in Capitol Hill. If you read that Time Magazine, you’ll see me testifying on Capitol Hill when I’m only 18 years old. I made a movie with HBO about my story. No one helped me. I just did it. I went to New York City to get that picture taken. I I I debated the vice president of my my college on Larry King Live when he was alive. I stunk at it.
Katie Koestner [00:38:47]:
I was a terrible debater. I went and I did and I flew and I tried and I talked to other survivors. I became a rape crisis counselor. I answered that hotline from 11 to 7 AM while I was in college. I immersed myself in the pain of myself and others by full immersion, and I won’t say I deleted everything else. I’m very lucky. I still was getting a’s and still going to classes and still am doing everything else. But I think that by burying things, we hurt more.
Katie Koestner [00:39:17]:
The wound does not heal with a patch. The wound heals when we put it in full sunlight and we we just go with it. And who cares? Like, that’s a great scar. You got through it. You survived, and you went on. For a while, I wanna go back one thing. Your daughter might go through a phase. Why in the blank did this have to happen to me? Is there something wrong with me? And you’ve simply gotta tell her it happens to a lot of people.
Katie Koestner [00:39:42]:
It’s not you. You’re unfortunately, my dear, you’re not special. It happens to 25% of women. So it’s just you were one of those, but let’s makes it had to happen for you. Let’s why? Let’s do something with this. Let’s make it into something more. Let’s make it part of who you are in a positive way. And and and I would and here’s a way that I think about that.
Katie Koestner [00:40:02]:
If someone you care a lot about in your life dies, like your grandmother, your auntie, you don’t say when are you gonna get over it. That pain, that horrible gap in your heart, no one says, when are you gonna stop missing your grandma? That’s wrong. Big losses in life, you’re like, how do you honor her? Big losses, we honor them if we’re on the right path. We figure out what’s glorious about that, about her, about that experience, and what goes forward. That’s the way to to spin anything. And and and and even for the dads who fortunately, hopefully, don’t have daughters in distress, start teaching her how to spin everything that’s bad into positive as fast as possible. Get over it. It’s not you.
Katie Koestner [00:40:43]:
It’s them. How do I navigate a different path? If I don’t like what I’m on, how do I change the lanes? That is resiliency. I’ll say, like now I’ll also say this for any dad who’s still listening to me. Your daughter’s I have a 14 year old intern on my team. She is magnificent. She helps with my podcast, and I mentor, if you have a daughter who wants to kick butt in the world, join the Take Back the Night team. We have volunteers across even all the way to Kenya. We have Benter who does our like, it’s so cool and amazing.
Katie Koestner [00:41:15]:
We empower every single woman, and and we teach them business skills. And if your daughter can’t like, how about flourishing with fabulous, like, international global women, young women? Like, we have amazing women. I would our 14 year old is the youngest volunteer, but my gosh, we have a team of, like, 50. They’re so we put them on teams. Like, your daughter should be around, like, if she’s on into sports. Like, what team is she on? Don’t let her isolate. Don’t let her find her heart just in one boy. Like, put her around amazing people who are gonna push her, help her thrive.
Katie Koestner [00:41:57]:
That’s gonna make her really amazing. So I’m just plugging, like, I don’t care if it’s Take Back the Night. I do care if it’s something. Just find some way to put around, not just singing. I know. Not pooh poohing singing. I can’t sing at all. I can’t do singing.
Katie Koestner [00:42:15]:
I can’t do car wheels. But I I think, you know, it’s putting around people who will push her in a positive way. Honor her spirit, push her enough to be ready to take criticism in a positive way. Like, all of the things you want. Right? Like, those are all great things. They’re very idealistic. If you can’t tell, I’m very positive that the glass is always almost full.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:42:40]:
Well, Katie, I just wanna say thank you for sharing your journey, but sharing all of this amazing insight today. If people wanna find out more about you, your story, your organization, where should they go to find out more?
Katie Koestner [00:42:53]:
Love, love that. First of all, believe it or not, I still go around the country and speak. I just got back from speaking in Nantucket. How fun was that? I took a ferry to my speech. That’s the first time I could say that. But I think I love speaking, but I also have a team of speakers. So if you want more education in your community, that is either Google Katie Koestner, my name, or you can go right to campus outreach services, and that’s education and awareness. There’s tons of ideas there.
Katie Koestner [00:43:23]:
2nd idea, take back the night. We are always eager to have more volunteers, more financial support. Go read about the hotline and coolness. You could even plan a take back the night event in your own community. We have a whole team who will help you. It’s just a one day event of awareness. You could do a bike race. You can do a walk.
Katie Koestner [00:43:42]:
You can do a vigil. You can have it at your church. You can have it at your school. You can have it at your business, but an event is a way of honoring and bringing awareness. So I encourage everybody to do that as well. But thank you, Chris. This is fabulous. This is so much fun.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:43:58]:
Well, I truly appreciate you being here today. Thank you for all the work that you’re doing to support so many across the globe, and I wish you all the best.
Katie Koestner [00:44:06]:
Absolutely. Take care.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:44:08]:
If you’ve enjoyed today’s episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual, and most dads are figuring it out as they go along. And the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fatheringtogether.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there’s a link in the notes today. Dads with Daughters is a program of fathering together.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:44:57]:
We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:45:06]:
We’re all in the same boat, and it’s full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and muscle men Get out and be the world to them. Be the best dad you can be.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:45:59]:
Be the best dad you can be.
